If you are a hacker, online freedom NGO or a team in any form, would you develop software or technology to help us bypass the Great Firewall in China? I mean a real total solution beyond tips or workarounds.
Dictators always want to control the free flow of information, seems they\u2019re one step closer to the target. Please do something to stop that. No matter it\u2019s China, Iran or who-knows-who-is-next.
TL;DR version:\nGFW is not new, but recently it becomes severely tight up. Things got worsen months ago, GFW got technical upgrade which enabled it to interfere even OpenVPN and SSH tunnel which had worked fine for a long time. I had used openvpn and astrill for 2 years, worked perfectly okay (to bypass internet filtering instead of privacy concern), GFW could not do anything to them but after the tech upgrade, no matter how I config protocol, port, TLS, MTU, no matter where the server is, the VPN connection could not be established or last no longer than 5 minutes. Tor? Too slow.
We guess the big brother has been collecting commercial VPN services\u2019 data or GFW gained ability to operate based on packet behavior.
I\u2019m not saying my whole life is total f*cked because of that but the truth is that I\u2019m and so many people here are really angered and frustrated. It\u2019s not because facebook or youtube, it\u2019s about us connecting with the world. Our right to watch, know and learn from YOU and the outside world is abruptly violated.
Sometimes I even wondered there\u2019re people like Anonymous who would bother to take down some websites (I personally think that\u2019s controversial way to express or protest), why not leverage you tech skills, teamwork and passion to do something to the GFW? Track the GFW nodes down? Analyze how it works? Counter interfere it? Develop a new tech solution?
And Finally Unblock Us?
Thanks for your patience and hope I\u2019ll still be able to come back to you."},"title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Ask HN: On China VPN block, would you help us out?"},"url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":""}},"_tags":["story","author_resettarget","story_5357590","ask_hn"],"author":"resettarget","children":[5358178,5359137],"created_at":"2013-03-11T16:07:16Z","created_at_i":1363018036,"num_comments":5,"objectID":"5357590","points":11,"story_id":5357590,"story_text":"Hi HN,\nA native Chinese living in China mainland here, may I ask for your help:
If you are a hacker, online freedom NGO or a team in any form, would you develop software or technology to help us bypass the Great Firewall in China? I mean a real total solution beyond tips or workarounds.
Dictators always want to control the free flow of information, seems they\u2019re one step closer to the target. Please do something to stop that. No matter it\u2019s China, Iran or who-knows-who-is-next.
TL;DR version:\nGFW is not new, but recently it becomes severely tight up. Things got worsen months ago, GFW got technical upgrade which enabled it to interfere even OpenVPN and SSH tunnel which had worked fine for a long time. I had used openvpn and astrill for 2 years, worked perfectly okay (to bypass internet filtering instead of privacy concern), GFW could not do anything to them but after the tech upgrade, no matter how I config protocol, port, TLS, MTU, no matter where the server is, the VPN connection could not be established or last no longer than 5 minutes. Tor? Too slow.
We guess the big brother has been collecting commercial VPN services\u2019 data or GFW gained ability to operate based on packet behavior.
I\u2019m not saying my whole life is total f*cked because of that but the truth is that I\u2019m and so many people here are really angered and frustrated. It\u2019s not because facebook or youtube, it\u2019s about us connecting with the world. Our right to watch, know and learn from YOU and the outside world is abruptly violated.
Sometimes I even wondered there\u2019re people like Anonymous who would bother to take down some websites (I personally think that\u2019s controversial way to express or protest), why not leverage you tech skills, teamwork and passion to do something to the GFW? Track the GFW nodes down? Analyze how it works? Counter interfere it? Develop a new tech solution?
And Finally Unblock Us?
Thanks for your patience and hope I\u2019ll still be able to come back to you.","title":"Ask HN: On China VPN block, would you help us out?","updated_at":"2024-09-19T19:22:01Z","url":""},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"m4nu"},"story_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"I'll start with a few:\nBlack Friday:\n- Astrill VPN, 50% off their yearly subscription: https://www.astrill.com/\n- Codeschool https://www.codeschool.com $75 off the 6 month subscription\n- http://www.oreilly.com/, 50~60% off ebooks and videos
Cyber Monday:\n- https://www.pluralsight.com/ Not sure what the deal will be"},"title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Ask HK: Any good black friday / cyber monday deal for devs?"}},"_tags":["story","author_m4nu","story_10637305","ask_hn"],"author":"m4nu","children":[10637393,10637661,10637808,10637809],"created_at":"2015-11-27T14:00:20Z","created_at_i":1448632820,"num_comments":4,"objectID":"10637305","points":7,"story_id":10637305,"story_text":"I'll start with a few:\nBlack Friday:\n- Astrill VPN, 50% off their yearly subscription: https://www.astrill.com/\n- Codeschool https://www.codeschool.com $75 off the 6 month subscription\n- http://www.oreilly.com/, 50~60% off ebooks and videos
Cyber Monday:\n- https://www.pluralsight.com/ Not sure what the deal will be","title":"Ask HK: Any good black friday / cyber monday deal for devs?","updated_at":"2024-09-19T22:33:23Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Tonyoh"},"story_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Hi,
I am living in China so I was quite excited about the new VPN promised by Cloudflare.
Then they release it, and basically it is just added encryption on top of their DNS server.
So please, don't advertise Warp as a VPN it is so lame. No geolocated server, no kill switch, not able to bypass China's great firewall. Give me my hype back! \nIt is better to stick to real VPNs like Portal, Astrill, NordVPN, any other or even local ones...
You can tell "Warp adds an extra layer of encryption" but not "Warp is a new free VPN", it is very misleading the way we think of VPN.
Not to mention I did not see any significant speed gain between Warp and Warp+ on the benchmark tests.
To make an analogy, Warp is exactly like those fruit juices that advertise themselves as "strawberries with bananas", when you check the ingredients you see 5% strawberries, 30% bananas, 65% apple."},"title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Warp from Cloudflare, from Hype to Scam"}},"_tags":["story","author_Tonyoh","story_21097892","ask_hn"],"author":"Tonyoh","children":[21097950,21098385,21100710],"created_at":"2019-09-28T02:01:51Z","created_at_i":1569636111,"num_comments":4,"objectID":"21097892","points":3,"story_id":21097892,"story_text":"Hi,
I am living in China so I was quite excited about the new VPN promised by Cloudflare.
Then they release it, and basically it is just added encryption on top of their DNS server.
So please, don't advertise Warp as a VPN it is so lame. No geolocated server, no kill switch, not able to bypass China's great firewall. Give me my hype back! \nIt is better to stick to real VPNs like Portal, Astrill, NordVPN, any other or even local ones...
You can tell "Warp adds an extra layer of encryption" but not "Warp is a new free VPN", it is very misleading the way we think of VPN.
Not to mention I did not see any significant speed gain between Warp and Warp+ on the benchmark tests.
To make an analogy, Warp is exactly like those fruit juices that advertise themselves as "strawberries with bananas", when you check the ingredients you see 5% strawberries, 30% bananas, 65% apple.","title":"Warp from Cloudflare, from Hype to Scam","updated_at":"2024-09-20T05:03:33Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"orthoganol"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Just sign up for a free trial for Astrill. Being in China without a VPN is insanity."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Interview with James Simons, Billionaire Mathematician [video]"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNznD9hMEh0"}},"_tags":["comment","author_orthoganol","story_9764793"],"author":"orthoganol","comment_text":"Just sign up for a free trial for Astrill. Being in China without a VPN is insanity.","created_at":"2015-06-24T03:38:37Z","created_at_i":1435117117,"objectID":"9769398","parent_id":9769195,"points":null,"story_id":9764793,"story_title":"Interview with James Simons, Billionaire Mathematician [video]","story_url":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNznD9hMEh0","updated_at":"2023-09-07T03:02:49Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"tiatia"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Anyone using Astrill?\nI would really be interested in an app-armor profile for their app."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"DuckDuckGo on CNBC: We\u2019ve grown 600% since NSA surveillance news broke"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://technical.ly/philly/2015/06/16/duckduckgo-cnbc/"}},"_tags":["comment","author_tiatia","story_9730570"],"author":"tiatia","comment_text":"Anyone using Astrill?\nI would really be interested in an app-armor profile for their app.","created_at":"2015-06-17T12:18:30Z","created_at_i":1434543510,"objectID":"9731264","parent_id":9730979,"points":null,"story_id":9730570,"story_title":"DuckDuckGo on CNBC: We\u2019ve grown 600% since NSA surveillance news broke","story_url":"http://technical.ly/philly/2015/06/16/duckduckgo-cnbc/","updated_at":"2023-09-07T02:59:34Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"geococcyxc"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"If the private key/certificate really is the same for every installation of superfish, it would be interesting to investigate whether the the key is shared by all the other customers of the SSL interceptor as well. Their references mention Barracuda Networks and Astrill, for example."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Extracting the SuperFish certificate"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://blog.erratasec.com/2015/02/extracting-superfish-certificate.html"}},"_tags":["comment","author_geococcyxc","story_9074110"],"author":"geococcyxc","children":[9076313],"comment_text":"If the private key/certificate really is the same for every installation of superfish, it would be interesting to investigate whether the the key is shared by all the other customers of the SSL interceptor as well. Their references mention Barracuda Networks and Astrill, for example.","created_at":"2015-02-19T17:36:26Z","created_at_i":1424367386,"objectID":"9075403","parent_id":9074110,"points":null,"story_id":9074110,"story_title":"Extracting the SuperFish certificate","story_url":"http://blog.erratasec.com/2015/02/extracting-superfish-certificate.html","updated_at":"2023-09-07T02:08:05Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"geococcyxc"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"It would be interesting to investigate whether the uncovered private key is shared by all the other customers of the SSL interceptor as well (http://www.komodia.com/products/komodia-redirector/ as mentioned by ChuckMcM earlier). Their references there mention Barracuda Networks and Astrill, for example."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Lenovo Caught Installing Adware on New Computers"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/02/19/lenovo-caught-installing-adware-new-computers/"}},"_tags":["comment","author_geococcyxc","story_9072424"],"author":"geococcyxc","comment_text":"It would be interesting to investigate whether the uncovered private key is shared by all the other customers of the SSL interceptor as well (http://www.komodia.com/products/komodia-redirector/ as mentioned by ChuckMcM earlier). Their references there mention Barracuda Networks and Astrill, for example.","created_at":"2015-02-19T17:24:51Z","created_at_i":1424366691,"objectID":"9075324","parent_id":9072424,"points":null,"story_id":9072424,"story_title":"Lenovo Caught Installing Adware on New Computers","story_url":"http://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/02/19/lenovo-caught-installing-adware-new-computers/","updated_at":"2023-09-07T02:08:05Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"tiatia"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Most websites just put the highest paying affiliate VPN first. So it is refreshing not to see affiliate links. This being said: I miss astrill.
They try to do a good job. Depending on your priorities (chinese FW!) a very good one. The only thing I am lacking for astrill: an app armor profile."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"[dead]"}},"_tags":["comment","author_tiatia","story_9056208"],"author":"tiatia","comment_text":"Most websites just put the highest paying affiliate VPN first. So it is refreshing not to see affiliate links. This being said: I miss astrill.
They try to do a good job. Depending on your priorities (chinese FW!) a very good one. The only thing I am lacking for astrill: an app armor profile.","created_at":"2015-02-16T11:50:49Z","created_at_i":1424087449,"objectID":"9056432","parent_id":9056208,"story_id":9056208,"story_title":"[dead]","updated_at":"2024-09-19T21:37:18Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"tbenst"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"I'm currently in China. VPNs are very common and popular here. Many work very poorly unfortunately (Private Internet Access included). Astrill appears to be the most popular and best performing. A few high-end hotels that I've stayed at route all traffic through a VPN to cater to their Western audience.
Many, many people with little technical ability use a VPN, especially in businesses dealing with the West."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"China Just Blocked Thousands of Websites"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://zh.greatfire.org/blog/2014/nov/china-just-blocked-thousands-websites"}},"_tags":["comment","author_tbenst","story_8622331"],"author":"tbenst","children":[8622819,8624550],"comment_text":"I'm currently in China. VPNs are very common and popular here. Many work very poorly unfortunately (Private Internet Access included). Astrill appears to be the most popular and best performing. A few high-end hotels that I've stayed at route all traffic through a VPN to cater to their Western audience.
Many, many people with little technical ability use a VPN, especially in businesses dealing with the West.","created_at":"2014-11-18T06:03:37Z","created_at_i":1416290617,"objectID":"8622601","parent_id":8622331,"story_id":8622331,"story_title":"China Just Blocked Thousands of Websites","story_url":"https://zh.greatfire.org/blog/2014/nov/china-just-blocked-thousands-websites","updated_at":"2024-09-19T21:16:07Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"jotm"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"That's interesting - I assumed they would block card payments, as well.
Hell, I have trouble paying for stuff in the EU with a US card...
Anyway, VPN providers are NOT your friend for privacy and escaping surveillance/censorship. They actually cooperate with the authorities!
Hidemyass and Astrill used to openly state they will provide any and all details of your identity and activities if the authorities request it!
There's no need for honeypots when all these companies give up your identity with a single call from the police.
They also discriminate against automated tools and robots for whatever reason, as if paying a human to do the work is better :-)"},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Coursera blocks access to students in Cuba, Iran, Sudan and Syria"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-course-accessibility-for-students-in-cuba"}},"_tags":["comment","author_jotm","story_7142517"],"author":"jotm","comment_text":"That's interesting - I assumed they would block card payments, as well.
Hell, I have trouble paying for stuff in the EU with a US card...
Anyway, VPN providers are NOT your friend for privacy and escaping surveillance/censorship. They actually cooperate with the authorities!
Hidemyass and Astrill used to openly state they will provide any and all details of your identity and activities if the authorities request it!
There's no need for honeypots when all these companies give up your identity with a single call from the police.
They also discriminate against automated tools and robots for whatever reason, as if paying a human to do the work is better :-)","created_at":"2014-01-29T16:37:00Z","created_at_i":1391013420,"objectID":"7144917","parent_id":7144082,"story_id":7142517,"story_title":"Coursera blocks access to students in Cuba, Iran, Sudan and Syria","story_url":"http://blog.coursera.org/post/74891215298/update-on-course-accessibility-for-students-in-cuba","updated_at":"2024-09-19T20:24:12Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"lvturner"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Living in China - Astrill, they have a variety of different protocols and endpoints, some working better than others on any given day."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Test if any website is blocked in China"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://www.blockedinchina.net/?hn"}},"_tags":["comment","author_lvturner","story_6666214"],"author":"lvturner","comment_text":"Living in China - Astrill, they have a variety of different protocols and endpoints, some working better than others on any given day.","created_at":"2013-11-04T06:00:50Z","created_at_i":1383544850,"objectID":"6667104","parent_id":6667004,"points":null,"story_id":6666214,"story_title":"Test if any website is blocked in China","story_url":"http://www.blockedinchina.net/?hn","updated_at":"2023-09-06T22:35:05Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"lvryc"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Some context: I don't actually know how useful this will be. Most foreign companies already use VPNs to Hong Kong or the US. Almost all the expatriates I know have personal VPNs set up as well. Astrill (https://www.astrill.com/) is the name I've been hearing nowadays.
I also discovered recently that more tech-savvy locals can also buy ways to jump the "Great Firewall" ridiculously easily - even right off of Taobao, which is the Chinese version ebay. (If you're interested, just search for "IP\u4ee3\u7406." I think it's about 8-15 RMB a month?)
This free-trade zone is tiny, and in the middle of nowhere. [Edit: things may be different if it's by Shanghai's port; I wasn't aware of that.] The most potentially exciting part about this news is that the government is thinking about extending this relaxation to all of Pudong, which is home to Shanghai's new financial and business district. Pudong effectively the CBD of Shanghai, but otherwise essentially is like the south side of London's Thames: most people live on the other side of the river, where the culture, excitement and history is. In other words, the vast majority of Shanghai's 20 million residents still won't be able to access Facebook... which is why this isn't half as big of a deal as it appears. Then again, I suppose it is exciting that there will now be a portion of mainland China where the government is actively letting people access Facebook."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"China to lift ban on Facebook, Twitter, NYT within Shanghai free-trade zone"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1316598/exclusive-china-lift-ban-facebook-only-within-shanghai-free-trade-zone"}},"_tags":["comment","author_lvryc","story_6435993"],"author":"lvryc","children":[6438033],"comment_text":"Some context: I don't actually know how useful this will be. Most foreign companies already use VPNs to Hong Kong or the US. Almost all the expatriates I know have personal VPNs set up as well. Astrill (https://www.astrill.com/) is the name I've been hearing nowadays.
I also discovered recently that more tech-savvy locals can also buy ways to jump the "Great Firewall" ridiculously easily - even right off of Taobao, which is the Chinese version ebay. (If you're interested, just search for "IP\u4ee3\u7406." I think it's about 8-15 RMB a month?)
This free-trade zone is tiny, and in the middle of nowhere. [Edit: things may be different if it's by Shanghai's port; I wasn't aware of that.] The most potentially exciting part about this news is that the government is thinking about extending this relaxation to all of Pudong, which is home to Shanghai's new financial and business district. Pudong effectively the CBD of Shanghai, but otherwise essentially is like the south side of London's Thames: most people live on the other side of the river, where the culture, excitement and history is. In other words, the vast majority of Shanghai's 20 million residents still won't be able to access Facebook... which is why this isn't half as big of a deal as it appears. Then again, I suppose it is exciting that there will now be a portion of mainland China where the government is actively letting people access Facebook.","created_at":"2013-09-24T08:08:47Z","created_at_i":1380010127,"objectID":"6436640","parent_id":6435993,"story_id":6435993,"story_title":"China to lift ban on Facebook, Twitter, NYT within Shanghai free-trade zone","story_url":"http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1316598/exclusive-china-lift-ban-facebook-only-within-shanghai-free-trade-zone","updated_at":"2024-09-19T19:59:59Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"newhouseb"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Oh I know, my family lives in China and I used to administer OpenVPN servers for them. Things have gotten a lot worse in the past couple of months as they start to deploy DPI and shut down suspicious connections. I believe my family uses Astrill for the moment which goes in and out."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Meet a Shenzhen Maker: Mr. Chen"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://www.hoektronics.com/2013/01/05/meet-a-shenzhen-maker-mr-chen/"}},"_tags":["comment","author_newhouseb","story_5095344"],"author":"newhouseb","comment_text":"Oh I know, my family lives in China and I used to administer OpenVPN servers for them. Things have gotten a lot worse in the past couple of months as they start to deploy DPI and shut down suspicious connections. I believe my family uses Astrill for the moment which goes in and out.","created_at":"2013-01-22T06:48:11Z","created_at_i":1358837291,"objectID":"5095913","parent_id":5095899,"story_id":5095344,"story_title":"Meet a Shenzhen Maker: Mr. Chen","story_url":"http://www.hoektronics.com/2013/01/05/meet-a-shenzhen-maker-mr-chen/","updated_at":"2024-09-19T19:14:34Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"oohaba"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"I have OpenVPN set up on a linode server in the US. That was working fine until a week ago. Switched hosting to Tokyo instead and that worked fine for a few days. Now my colleagues and I have given up and are using a friend's account with Astrill."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Chinese government blocks Google.com, Gmail, Google+, Maps, Docs and more"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/09/chinese-government-blocks-google-com-gmail-google-maps-docs-analytics-drive-more/"}},"_tags":["comment","author_oohaba","story_4764376"],"author":"oohaba","comment_text":"I have OpenVPN set up on a linode server in the US. That was working fine until a week ago. Switched hosting to Tokyo instead and that worked fine for a few days. Now my colleagues and I have given up and are using a friend's account with Astrill.","created_at":"2012-11-10T16:25:17Z","created_at_i":1352564717,"objectID":"4766990","parent_id":4764959,"points":null,"story_id":4764376,"story_title":"Chinese government blocks Google.com, Gmail, Google+, Maps, Docs and more","story_url":"http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/09/chinese-government-blocks-google-com-gmail-google-maps-docs-analytics-drive-more/","updated_at":"2023-09-06T21:29:45Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"DonHopkins"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"This is all very astrILLOGICAL!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46585825
DonHopkins 22 days ago | prev | next [\u2013]
From the HN discussion of "Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997) (donhopkins.com)":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997725
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/images/Sims/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15002840
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997)
The trick of optimizing games is to off-load as much as the simulation from the computer into the user's brain, which is MUCH more powerful and creative. Implication is more efficient (and richer) than simulation.
During development, when we first added Astrological signs to the characters, there was a discussion about whether we should invent our own original "Sim Zodiac" signs, or use the traditional ones, which have a lot of baggage and history (which some of the designers thought might be a problem).
Will Wright argued that we actually wanted to leverage the baggage and history of the traditional Astrological signs of the Zodiac, so we should just use those and not invent our own.
The way it works is that Will came up with twelve archetypal vectors of personality traits corresponding to each of the twelve Astrological signs, so when you set their personality traits, it looks up the sign with the nearest euclidian distance to the character's personality, and displays that as their sign. But there was absolutely no actual effect on their behavior.
That decision paid off almost instantly and measurably in testing, after we implemented the user interface for showing the Astrological sign in the character creation screen, without writing any code to make their sign affect their behavior: The testers immediately started reporting bugs that their character's sign had too much of an effect on their personality, and claimed that the non-existent effect of astrological signs on behavior needed to be tuned down. But that effect was totally coming from their imagination!
They should call them Astrillogical Signs!
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 [\u2013]
The create-a-sim user interface hid the corresponding astrological sign for the initial all-zero personality you first see before you've spent any points, because that would be insulting to 1/12th of the players (implying [your sign] has zero personality)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzt12tEGpY
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46584625
gwern 22 days ago | parent | context | favorite | on: Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalitie...
I think my take away is that you are seeing mostly mode-collapse here. There is a high consistency across all of the supposedly different personalities (higher than the naive count would indicate - remember the stochastic nature of responses will inflate the number of 'different' responses, since OP doesn't say anything about sampling a large number of times to get the true response).
DonHopkins 21 days ago | parent | next [\u2013]
You are right about mode-collapse -- and that observation is exactly what makes this interesting.\nIn my other comment here, I described The Sims' zodiac from 1997: Will Wright computed signs from personality via Euclidean distance to archetypal vectors, displayed them cosmetically, and wrote zero behavioral code. The zodiac affected nothing. Yet testers reported bugs: "The zodiac influence is too strong! Tune it down!"
Your "mode-collapse with stochastic noise" is the same phenomenon measured from the other direction. In The Sims: zero computed difference, perceived personality. In this LLM experiment: minimal computed difference, perceived personality. Same gap.
Will called it the Simulator Effect: players imagine more than you simulate. I would argue mode-collapse IS the Simulator Effect measured from the output side.
But here is where it becomes actionable: one voice is the wrong number of voices.
ChatGPT gives you the statistical center -- mode-collapse to the bland mean. The single answer that offends no one and inspires no one. You can not fix this with better prompting because it is the inevitable result of single-agent inference.
Timothy Leary built MIND MIRROR in 1985 -- psychology software visualizing personality as a circumplex, based on his 1950 PhD dissertation on the Interpersonal Circumplex. The Sims inherited this (neat, outgoing, active, playful, nice). But a personality profile is not an answer. It is a lens.
The wild part: in 1970, Leary took his own test during prison intake, gamed it to get minimum security classification (outdoor work detail), and escaped by climbing a telephone wire over the fence. The system's own tools became instruments of liberation.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/mind-mi...
MOOLLM's response: simulate an adversarial committee within the same call. Multiple personas with opposing propensities -- a paranoid realist, an idealist, an evidence prosecutor -- debating via Robert's Rules. Stories that survive cross-examination are more robust than the statistical center.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/adversa...
I wrote this up with links into the project:
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/sims-a...
The bigger project is MOOLLM -- treating the LLM as eval() for a microworld OS. K-lines, prototype-based instantiation, many-voiced deliberation. The question I keep wrestling with: mode-collapse as limitation vs feature. The Sims exploited it. MOOLLM routes around it.
Would value your take on the information-theoretic framing -- particularly whether multi-agent simulation actually increases effective entropy or just redistributes it.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm
The MOOLLM Eval Incarnate Framework: Skills are programs. The LLM is eval(). Empathy is the interface. Code. Graphics. Data. One interpreter. Many languages. The Axis of Eval.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/MOOLLM..."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Astrological CPU Scheduler"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://github.com/zampierilucas/scx_horoscope"}},"_tags":["comment","author_DonHopkins","story_46805763"],"author":"DonHopkins","comment_text":"This is all very astrILLOGICAL!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46585825
DonHopkins 22 days ago | prev | next [\u2013]
From the HN discussion of "Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997) (donhopkins.com)":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997725
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/images/Sims/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15002840
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997)
The trick of optimizing games is to off-load as much as the simulation from the computer into the user's brain, which is MUCH more powerful and creative. Implication is more efficient (and richer) than simulation.
During development, when we first added Astrological signs to the characters, there was a discussion about whether we should invent our own original "Sim Zodiac" signs, or use the traditional ones, which have a lot of baggage and history (which some of the designers thought might be a problem).
Will Wright argued that we actually wanted to leverage the baggage and history of the traditional Astrological signs of the Zodiac, so we should just use those and not invent our own.
The way it works is that Will came up with twelve archetypal vectors of personality traits corresponding to each of the twelve Astrological signs, so when you set their personality traits, it looks up the sign with the nearest euclidian distance to the character's personality, and displays that as their sign. But there was absolutely no actual effect on their behavior.
That decision paid off almost instantly and measurably in testing, after we implemented the user interface for showing the Astrological sign in the character creation screen, without writing any code to make their sign affect their behavior: The testers immediately started reporting bugs that their character's sign had too much of an effect on their personality, and claimed that the non-existent effect of astrological signs on behavior needed to be tuned down. But that effect was totally coming from their imagination!
They should call them Astrillogical Signs!
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 [\u2013]
The create-a-sim user interface hid the corresponding astrological sign for the initial all-zero personality you first see before you've spent any points, because that would be insulting to 1/12th of the players (implying [your sign] has zero personality)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzt12tEGpY
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46584625
gwern 22 days ago | parent | context | favorite | on: Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalitie...
I think my take away is that you are seeing mostly mode-collapse here. There is a high consistency across all of the supposedly different personalities (higher than the naive count would indicate - remember the stochastic nature of responses will inflate the number of 'different' responses, since OP doesn't say anything about sampling a large number of times to get the true response).
DonHopkins 21 days ago | parent | next [\u2013]
You are right about mode-collapse -- and that observation is exactly what makes this interesting.\nIn my other comment here, I described The Sims' zodiac from 1997: Will Wright computed signs from personality via Euclidean distance to archetypal vectors, displayed them cosmetically, and wrote zero behavioral code. The zodiac affected nothing. Yet testers reported bugs: "The zodiac influence is too strong! Tune it down!"
Your "mode-collapse with stochastic noise" is the same phenomenon measured from the other direction. In The Sims: zero computed difference, perceived personality. In this LLM experiment: minimal computed difference, perceived personality. Same gap.
Will called it the Simulator Effect: players imagine more than you simulate. I would argue mode-collapse IS the Simulator Effect measured from the output side.
But here is where it becomes actionable: one voice is the wrong number of voices.
ChatGPT gives you the statistical center -- mode-collapse to the bland mean. The single answer that offends no one and inspires no one. You can not fix this with better prompting because it is the inevitable result of single-agent inference.
Timothy Leary built MIND MIRROR in 1985 -- psychology software visualizing personality as a circumplex, based on his 1950 PhD dissertation on the Interpersonal Circumplex. The Sims inherited this (neat, outgoing, active, playful, nice). But a personality profile is not an answer. It is a lens.
The wild part: in 1970, Leary took his own test during prison intake, gamed it to get minimum security classification (outdoor work detail), and escaped by climbing a telephone wire over the fence. The system's own tools became instruments of liberation.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/mind-mi...
MOOLLM's response: simulate an adversarial committee within the same call. Multiple personas with opposing propensities -- a paranoid realist, an idealist, an evidence prosecutor -- debating via Robert's Rules. Stories that survive cross-examination are more robust than the statistical center.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/adversa...
I wrote this up with links into the project:
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/sims-a...
The bigger project is MOOLLM -- treating the LLM as eval() for a microworld OS. K-lines, prototype-based instantiation, many-voiced deliberation. The question I keep wrestling with: mode-collapse as limitation vs feature. The Sims exploited it. MOOLLM routes around it.
Would value your take on the information-theoretic framing -- particularly whether multi-agent simulation actually increases effective entropy or just redistributes it.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm
The MOOLLM Eval Incarnate Framework: Skills are programs. The LLM is eval(). Empathy is the interface. Code. Graphics. Data. One interpreter. Many languages. The Axis of Eval.
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/blob/main/designs/MOOLLM...","created_at":"2026-02-03T09:58:26Z","created_at_i":1770112706,"objectID":"46868917","parent_id":46805763,"story_id":46805763,"story_title":"Astrological CPU Scheduler","story_url":"https://github.com/zampierilucas/scx_horoscope","updated_at":"2026-03-05T23:30:03Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"DonHopkins"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Astrillogical Signs are powerful tools for fooling and manipulating people and LLMs, so they do have practical applications! ;)
Timothy Leary used his own Interpersonal Circumplex to break out of jail!
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/mind-mi..."},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalities?"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://github.com/baturyilmaz/what-if-ai-agents-had-zodiac-personalities"}},"_tags":["comment","author_DonHopkins","story_46581832"],"author":"DonHopkins","comment_text":"Astrillogical Signs are powerful tools for fooling and manipulating people and LLMs, so they do have practical applications! ;)
Timothy Leary used his own Interpersonal Circumplex to break out of jail!
https://github.com/SimHacker/moollm/tree/main/skills/mind-mi...","created_at":"2026-01-12T15:15:24Z","created_at_i":1768230924,"objectID":"46589597","parent_id":46582896,"story_id":46581832,"story_title":"Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalities?","story_url":"https://github.com/baturyilmaz/what-if-ai-agents-had-zodiac-personalities","updated_at":"2026-03-05T23:22:04Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"DonHopkins"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"From the HN discussion of "Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997) (donhopkins.com)":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997725
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/images/Sims/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15002840
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997)
The trick of optimizing games is to off-load as much as the simulation from the computer into the user's brain, which is MUCH more powerful and creative. Implication is more efficient (and richer) than simulation.
During development, when we first added Astrological signs to the characters, there was a discussion about whether we should invent our own original "Sim Zodiac" signs, or use the traditional ones, which have a lot of baggage and history (which some of the designers thought might be a problem).
Will Wright argued that we actually wanted to leverage the baggage and history of the traditional Astrological signs of the Zodiac, so we should just use those and not invent our own.
The way it works is that Will came up with twelve archetypal vectors of personality traits corresponding to each of the twelve Astrological signs, so when you set their personality traits, it looks up the sign with the nearest euclidian distance to the character's personality, and displays that as their sign. But there was absolutely no actual effect on their behavior.
That decision paid off almost instantly and measurably in testing, after we implemented the user interface for showing the Astrological sign in the character creation screen, without writing any code to make their sign affect their behavior: The testers immediately started reporting bugs that their character's sign had too much of an effect on their personality, and claimed that the non-existent effect of astrological signs on behavior needed to be tuned down. But that effect was totally coming from their imagination!
They should call them Astrillogical Signs!
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 [\u2013]
The create-a-sim user interface hid the corresponding astrological sign for the initial all-zero personality you first see before you've spent any points, because that would be insulting to 1/12th of the players (implying [your sign] has zero personality)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzt12tEGpY"},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalities?"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://github.com/baturyilmaz/what-if-ai-agents-had-zodiac-personalities"}},"_tags":["comment","author_DonHopkins","story_46581832"],"author":"DonHopkins","comment_text":"From the HN discussion of "Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997) (donhopkins.com)":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14997725
https://www.donhopkins.com/home/images/Sims/
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15002840
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 | parent | context | favorite | on: Motive.c: The Soul of the Sims (1997)
The trick of optimizing games is to off-load as much as the simulation from the computer into the user's brain, which is MUCH more powerful and creative. Implication is more efficient (and richer) than simulation.
During development, when we first added Astrological signs to the characters, there was a discussion about whether we should invent our own original "Sim Zodiac" signs, or use the traditional ones, which have a lot of baggage and history (which some of the designers thought might be a problem).
Will Wright argued that we actually wanted to leverage the baggage and history of the traditional Astrological signs of the Zodiac, so we should just use those and not invent our own.
The way it works is that Will came up with twelve archetypal vectors of personality traits corresponding to each of the twelve Astrological signs, so when you set their personality traits, it looks up the sign with the nearest euclidian distance to the character's personality, and displays that as their sign. But there was absolutely no actual effect on their behavior.
That decision paid off almost instantly and measurably in testing, after we implemented the user interface for showing the Astrological sign in the character creation screen, without writing any code to make their sign affect their behavior: The testers immediately started reporting bugs that their character's sign had too much of an effect on their personality, and claimed that the non-existent effect of astrological signs on behavior needed to be tuned down. But that effect was totally coming from their imagination!
They should call them Astrillogical Signs!
DonHopkins on Aug 13, 2017 [\u2013]
The create-a-sim user interface hid the corresponding astrological sign for the initial all-zero personality you first see before you've spent any points, because that would be insulting to 1/12th of the players (implying [your sign] has zero personality)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzt12tEGpY","created_at":"2026-01-12T08:56:57Z","created_at_i":1768208217,"objectID":"46585825","parent_id":46581832,"story_id":46581832,"story_title":"Show HN: What if AI agents had Zodiac personalities?","story_url":"https://github.com/baturyilmaz/what-if-ai-agents-had-zodiac-personalities","updated_at":"2026-03-05T23:21:48Z"},{"_highlightResult":{"author":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"Beijinger"},"comment_text":{"fullyHighlighted":false,"matchLevel":"full","matchedWords":["astrill"],"value":"Yes sure. Please include AirVPN and Astrill.
But again, it depends on your use case. Very few can drill thought the GFW"},"story_title":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"VPN location claims don't match real traffic exits"},"story_url":{"matchLevel":"none","matchedWords":[],"value":"https://ipinfo.io/blog/vpn-location-mismatch-report"}},"_tags":["comment","author_Beijinger","story_46257339"],"author":"Beijinger","comment_text":"Yes sure. Please include AirVPN and Astrill.
But again, it depends on your use case. Very few can drill thought the GFW","created_at":"2025-12-14T23:55:35Z","created_at_i":1765756535,"objectID":"46268520","parent_id":46261409,"story_id":46257339,"story_title":"VPN location claims don't match real traffic exits","story_url":"https://ipinfo.io/blog/vpn-location-mismatch-report","updated_at":"2026-03-05T23:12:02Z"}],"hitsPerPage":20,"nbHits":1875,"nbPages":50,"page":0,"params":"query=astrill&advancedSyntax=true&analyticsTags=backend","processingTimeMS":17,"processingTimingsMS":{"_request":{"roundTrip":23},"afterFetch":{"format":{"highlighting":2,"total":2},"merge":{"entries":{"decompress":1,"total":1},"mergeLoop":{"prepareNextHit":9,"total":9},"total":9},"total":9},"fetch":{"query":6,"total":7},"total":17},"query":"astrill","serverTimeMS":20}