Claude Code is pretty great, but I find Cline better (plus I can use Gemini 2.5 with it and am not limited to Anthropic only).","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"jstanley","children":[{"author":"koakuma-chan","children":[{"author":"jstanley","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:50:54.000Z","created_at_i":1744480254,"id":43666520,"options":[],"parent_id":43666509,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"It's also good when you're making the "same" change in a bunch of different places, after you do it by hand a couple of times it gets the idea and you can just keep pressing Tab.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:48:52.000Z","created_at_i":1744480132,"id":43666509,"options":[],"parent_id":43666461,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I think you\u2019re referring to that time when you\u2019re writing boilerplate and your LLM is able to guess what you want to write, and it does feel good, yes, but my point is that autocomplete can steer you away from writing unique, original and potentially better code than what it suggests.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:42:19.000Z","created_at_i":1744479739,"id":43666461,"options":[],"parent_id":43666091,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"> suggestions interfere with your own thinking
This definitely happens, but it's worth it. When you and Cursor are on the same page the autocomplete is a magical experience.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T16:58:08.000Z","created_at_i":1744477088,"id":43666091,"options":[],"parent_id":43666035,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Just the fact that it\u2019s not a VSCode fork or extension already makes it superior, but there is more: It is general purpose, you can ask it to do pretty much whatever you want, not limited to coding. It does not have autocompletion, which I believe only gets in the way (suggestions interfere with your own thinking).","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"nhumrich","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T16:59:02.000Z","created_at_i":1744477142,"id":43666098,"options":[],"parent_id":43666035,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"It's very good in other ways, but I do enjoy that it's a CLI tool and not a full fledged editor.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T16:51:07.000Z","created_at_i":1744476667,"id":43666035,"options":[],"parent_id":43665894,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Is the thing you like best that it's in terminal? Or something more?","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"behnamoh","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:01:36.000Z","created_at_i":1744484496,"id":43667055,"options":[],"parent_id":43665894,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Yes, price-wise.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"ukuina","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-13T03:08:21.000Z","created_at_i":1744513701,"id":43669749,"options":[],"parent_id":43665894,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Have you tried https://github.com/block/goose ?","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T16:36:07.000Z","created_at_i":1744475767,"id":43665894,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Claude Code > all","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"DeathArrow","children":[{"author":"jrvarela56","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:42:02.000Z","created_at_i":1744486922,"id":43667375,"options":[],"parent_id":43666236,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I pay for Cursor but the comments here made me question the incentives. They have to cut spending. The byo api keys don\u2019t suffer from that.
Maybe we need evals for these tools? There are benchmarks for coding abilities (swe bench?), would be cool to set these agentic IDEs.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:13:18.000Z","created_at_i":1744477998,"id":43666236,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I think agentic features of Cursor are better. I am sticking with it for now.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"bluelightning2k","children":[{"author":"fortyseven","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:42:42.000Z","created_at_i":1744483362,"id":43666923,"options":[],"parent_id":43666239,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"That stance alone will keep me far away from it.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"repsilat","children":[{"author":"bluelightning2k","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T21:14:29.000Z","created_at_i":1744492469,"id":43667985,"options":[],"parent_id":43667762,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"The linked article literally starts by calling themselves an anti innovation company and declaring they do not intend to improve on it (at least not in innovative ways)","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:38:18.000Z","created_at_i":1744490298,"id":43667762,"options":[],"parent_id":43666239,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Releasing an open source product that improves on alternatives doesn't sound like \u201dstealing\u201d or \u201dadding no value" to me.
They're giving away something valuable, same as the people whose work they're building on top of.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:13:37.000Z","created_at_i":1744478017,"id":43666239,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I do not respect this project. "We are stealing and adding no value" is not a good pitch, borders on anti open source, and just fundamentally why would anyone support you or choose you over the original(s).","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"submeta","children":[{"author":"rvnx","children":[{"author":"shmoogy","children":[{"author":"rvnx","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:53:23.000Z","created_at_i":1744480403,"id":43666536,"options":[],"parent_id":43666500,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"If you are greedy (or cautious about how you spend, because literally RooCode can code 0.5 to 1 USD per request), you can enable slow-mode in Cursor, and just ride the wave with Sonnet-3.7 for free.
(or create a new free account and enjoy 500 fast requests)
In theory, you could use RooCode with the GitHub Copilot API too, but in practice there are limits that makes it unusable.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:47:19.000Z","created_at_i":1744480039,"id":43666500,"options":[],"parent_id":43666338,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Okay glad it's not just me - I've started using cline and was about to cancel cursor. Max mode spends a ton of money may as well use cline.
If I could proxy Claude code through openrouter I'd be more open to testing it ...","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:25:45.000Z","created_at_i":1744478745,"id":43666338,"options":[],"parent_id":43666254,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"This is because Cursor tries to save cost on LLM calls, so it sends it only a very narrow piece of code, and narrower and narrower at every update","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:15:52.000Z","created_at_i":1744478152,"id":43666254,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I love Cursor, with Claude 3.7 and Gemini. But Claude Code is an absolut biest and blows them out the water. It is expensive, but it acts like a senior developer. It fixes bugs where Cursor (no matter which model) fails to do so, no matter which model.
I tried Roo with OpenRouter, selected DeepSeek R1, as that was supposed to have the largest output token. Asked Roo to create a documentation for a project I worked on. It created a page of markdown with a few mermaid diagrams. Next I asked Claude Code to do the same. With the same prompt. It created several markdown files with half a dozen mermaid diagrams describing the tech stack, the architecture, the data model and so much more. Another level.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"Arcuru","children":[{"author":"rvnx","children":[{"author":"newlisp","children":[{"author":"stuartjohnson12","children":[{"author":"rvnx","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T21:11:59.000Z","created_at_i":1744492319,"id":43667968,"options":[],"parent_id":43667498,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Until in 2 years once we see new MacBook with AI chips and/or lot of memory, and that these chips can load whole offline models.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:00:59.000Z","created_at_i":1744488059,"id":43667498,"options":[],"parent_id":43666882,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"To use what they learn from the distribution they get from throwing a pile of banknotes in the air to become the defensibly best tool on the market, at which point they can charge above token price.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"createaccount99","children":[{"author":"rvnx","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-13T10:06:15.000Z","created_at_i":1744538775,"id":43671613,"options":[],"parent_id":43671360,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Sounds like a plan! Here's 100M USD","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-13T09:20:39.000Z","created_at_i":1744536039,"id":43671360,"options":[],"parent_id":43666882,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"They mentioned in a previous thread that selling business features (SAML, SSO, idk) is their plan.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:37:30.000Z","created_at_i":1744483050,"id":43666882,"options":[],"parent_id":43666483,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"What is Kilocode's business plan if they don't take a cut on API access for third parties?","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:45:46.000Z","created_at_i":1744479946,"id":43666483,"options":[],"parent_id":43666374,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"They claim:
> The free tier includes $20 of Claude 3.7 credits!
> Free Claude 3.7 Sonnet access included
This is what really matters, much more than the IDE itself, they are all VS Code forks (and here, just an extension)
Cursor it's somewhat more interesting than others because they have unlimited premium slow requests, and the fact it is free, makes it acceptable that it's not performing well compared to RooCode.
At the end it's very good because the investors of Cursor agrees to pay with their money your usage of Cursor (if you accept a bit of slow down).
But to be fair, RooCode, or any of the forks, it doesn't matter, as long as the investors pay for the credits.
If Claude would do a $200 unlimited RooCode access, then suddenly RooCode would take a large segment of the market I guess.
If this KiloCode wants to differentiate, this is what they could try.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"jjmarr","children":[{"author":"g_delgado14","children":[{"author":"01HNNWZ0MV43FF","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:21:01.000Z","created_at_i":1744485661,"id":43667203,"options":[],"parent_id":43666869,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"AGPL encodes quite a bit of morality, and suddenly when expectations are written in clear language people stop liking it","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"jchw","children":[{"author":"jjmarr","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-13T01:52:45.000Z","created_at_i":1744509165,"id":43669396,"options":[],"parent_id":43667660,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"CC-BY-NC-SA allows you to ban commercial use as well, if you really don't want downstream people using your stuff commercially.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:24:40.000Z","created_at_i":1744489480,"id":43667660,"options":[],"parent_id":43666869,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"The entire premise of copyleft is taking advantage of copyright law to be able to represent moral expectations in the copyright license. Within the limits of copyright law is plenty of room to choose something restrictive enough to fit with whatever you want. If you pick a permissive license and people use your software in accordance with that license, complaining just doesn't make sense. The license you have them explicitly allows this. It's not a loophole, it's not a mistake in the license, it's not something that the license authors didn't foresee, it is a feature.
It is unfortunate when people make decisions that have legal ramifications they do not understand, but there's gotta be at least a little personal responsibility here. It's no different for code than anything else. There was a case not long ago where someone who made royalty free music changed their mind and tried to make copyright claims against people who had used their music in their YouTube videos. But can we be fair here? If you released this thing with an explicit royalty free license like that, can you really get mad because you can't get royalties that you clearly didn't expect in the first place?
If you're worried that you may regret releasing your own works under open source licenses, permissive or copyleft, then simply don't do it. The downside is that you can't be a direct part of the open source ecosystem, either by using existing (non-permissive) libraries or by being adopted by other open source software, but the thing is the vast majority of developers are aware of what they're signing up for. If someone makes a million dollars off of your open source software, you can have an expected paycheck of $0.00, and that even goes if it's copyleft. The plus side of this trade-off is that it enables anyone to take advantage of your software, even if they wouldn't normally have the means of licensing a product for their use case, with very low friction, providing the maximum benefit.
Copyright law, though, certainly does let you encode the expectation that "if you want to make money using this you must pay me", so if that's your expectation, don't use licenses that contradict it, especially not just because it is trendy.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"theamk","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:49:27.000Z","created_at_i":1744490967,"id":43667839,"options":[],"parent_id":43666869,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"but it is. What do you think the difference between MIT, GPL, AGPL and BSL is? It's explicitly what you call "morality".
It is super easy to release things under AGPL today. If people don't, it is an explicit decision.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:35:51.000Z","created_at_i":1744482951,"id":43666869,"options":[],"parent_id":43666761,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"The same could be said of corporations who aren\u2019t required to report pollution and thus exploit because it\u2019s legal. Morality isn\u2019t encoded in most agreements.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"behnamoh","children":[{"author":"kgwgk","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:20:33.000Z","created_at_i":1744485633,"id":43667197,"options":[],"parent_id":43667071,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":""Why give it away for free when I don't want to give it away for free" seems a pretty good mindset to prevent someone who doesn't want to give things away for free from doing so by mistake and regretting it later.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:03:54.000Z","created_at_i":1744484634,"id":43667071,"options":[],"parent_id":43666761,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"this kind of mindset prevents many people from open sourcing their projects. "why give it away for free when you can monetize the closed source version?" I personally have donated to several open source projects but I know it's nothing compared to the price I've had to pay for closed source ones.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"benwilber0","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:05:52.000Z","created_at_i":1744484752,"id":43667088,"options":[],"parent_id":43666761,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Yeah. RooCode intentionally uses one of the most permissive licenses in existence and even formally declares in the README of the project that they are not responsible for the usage or output of the software whatsoever.
And yet people will still get upset when the software isn't used like the way they want it to be used...","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:21:24.000Z","created_at_i":1744482084,"id":43666761,"options":[],"parent_id":43666374,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Maybe don't use an open-source licence if you don't want people to freely use your project's source code?? Especially a permissive one that doesn't require copyleft.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"davidanekstein","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:41:36.000Z","created_at_i":1744483296,"id":43666915,"options":[],"parent_id":43666374,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"pkaye","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:06:10.000Z","created_at_i":1744484770,"id":43667089,"options":[],"parent_id":43666374,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"The Kilo Code extension seems to be Apache license.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"ipsum2","children":[{"author":"bluelightning2k","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T21:20:53.000Z","created_at_i":1744492853,"id":43668041,"options":[],"parent_id":43667542,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Brb just applying to YC with a kilo fork which offers $21 in free usage and solemnly swears not to innovate even harder","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:05:59.000Z","created_at_i":1744488359,"id":43667542,"options":[],"parent_id":43666374,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"It's open source: https://github.com/Kilo-Org/kilocode, so they are giving back. I haven't looked into what features they offer, since I'm happy with Cline for now","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T17:31:54.000Z","created_at_i":1744479114,"id":43666374,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"How much money did you give the Roo and Cline developers?
From the website, this is a "well funded" startup that is giving away $20 of credits for free to people who use it. They are literally forking 2 OSS projects and turning them into a funded startup, seemingly without giving anything back.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"ach9l","children":[{"author":"jawon","children":[{"author":"ach9l","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T22:14:11.000Z","created_at_i":1744496051,"id":43668320,"options":[],"parent_id":43667545,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"i've been testing all models that fit the mac studio 512 gb ever since i got it. previously i was mostly focused on getting tool use and chain of thought fine-tuning for coding, around the size of llama 3.2 11b. but even some distill r1s on llama 3 70b run well on macbooks, although quite slow compared to a regular api call to the closed models.
for mac studios i've found the sweet spot to be the largest gemma, up until llama scout was released, which fits the mac studio best. scout, although faster to generate, takes a while longer to fill in the long context, basically getting the same usability speeds as with the qwq or gemma 27b.
the refactoring is a test driven task that i've programmed to run by itself, think deep research, until it passes the tests or exhausts imposed trial limits. i've wrote it by instructing gemini, r1 and claude. in short, i've made gemini read and document proposals for refactoring, based on the way i code and strict architectural patterns that i find optimal for projects that handle both an engine and some views such as the react.js views that are present in these vscode extensions.
gemini pro gets it really well and has enough context capacity to maintain several different branches of the same codebase with these crazy long files without losing context. once this task is completed, training a smaller model based on the executed actions, (by that i mean all the tool use: diff, insert, replace and most importantly, testing) to perform the refactoring instructions is fairly easy.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:06:19.000Z","created_at_i":1744488379,"id":43667545,"options":[],"parent_id":43666607,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"What size gemma are you using? Is the refactoring running independently or managed by you?","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:01:39.000Z","created_at_i":1744480899,"id":43666607,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"yep, this is the way, i guess. as somebody who has taken this very same exercise of cloning cline using cline for my own cline, a cline that compiles itself, i\u2019ve also learned to steal* things over the years. i\u2019ve seen your extension, but i was reluctant to give it a try just because it looked just like any other clone, but i guess i\u2019ll do the same thing again. i\u2019ve started to see the value when i decided to fork and declutter again, this time roo code. actually i\u2019ve perfected forking cline and derivatives with my own framework. when you know what you\u2019re doing, these tools don\u2019t put you in the flow. vibe coding done right is another level of progress. i\u2019ve got a cs major though, so i\u2019m a bit biased, also helps that i\u2019ve done masters in theoretical computing, theoretical linguistics and machine learning, so i\u2019ve always been attracted to these toys and frameworks, not so much to javascript or web development however. this whole exercise, or should i say automation? now, takes me back to the days i wrote compilers. this is just as fun as code that can compile itself in the end. same shit all over again.
so i gave roo code a try, set a few test cases, and proceeded to declutter, refactor, rewrite the whole thing. i\u2019ve never really written long apps in javascript nor typescript for that matter, and man, i just think 3k lines of code in a single file is just bad code, and i\u2019ve been proven right. 3k lines fucks your context really good. you can\u2019t use cline to code cline because it will ruin you financially one way or another. jesus fuckin\u2019 christ the old cline.ts file was like responsible for the whole damn extension, over 3k lines, the kind of code i would write 10 years ago as an intern. anyway, i\u2019ve added (and learned in the process) react.js components to have an interface to easily collect the data for my own loras. honestly if you are looking to integrate large local models into kilo, i\u2019d love to collaborate. my forks mostly provide data analysis for the fine-tuning of my own personal repositories, using years of commit history as training data, even bash history. i\u2019ve benchmarked several tasks. i can basically fork roo code or cline, declutter it, refactor it, with a gemma or qwq running in a mac studio for a few watts. i\u2019ve been logging everything that i do ever since we were granted api access to gpt3 at a lab i coordinated about 5 years ago. so i\u2019ve mastered the filtering of the completions api, reconstruction of streams, all using airflow and python scripts. i added a couple buttons such as the download task you\u2019ve also added, but more along the lines of \u201csend this to the batch in the datacenter so we train a new gemma\u201d filtering good solutions vs not so good, the old thumbs up thumbs down situation, helps a lot, adding a couple of mcp integrations for applying quick loras locally, plus the addition of test driven development, aiming for reinforcement learning based loras. i built myself a very nice toy, or should i say, i bootstrapped a very nice tool that creates itself? anyway, thanks for sharing this.
i think the next major thing that is gonna happen with these tools is that it gets free at home as new chips become cheaper. llama 4 running in mac studios or dgx stations is as fast as you can get today and it is already good enough (if prepared correctly) to build any yc startup codebase from before covid, or even from before chatgpt, in a weekend. it will definitely happen. i\u2019m wrapping fixing llama4 scout, allow me to mention the fact that it has a tendency to fix bugs by commenting code and adding TODOs, fucking great architecture though, just what we needed, i mean for optimal local development. i\u2019ll try to publish results soon enough, optimized for the top mac studio though, haven\u2019t got a dgx yet. i\u2019ll prepare macbook versions too. the world needs more of this, a cline that fixes itself just on battery power...","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"omerfarukak","children":[{"author":"jspdown","children":[{"author":"omerfarukak","children":[{"author":"koakuma-chan","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T20:20:33.000Z","created_at_i":1744489233,"id":43667628,"options":[],"parent_id":43667142,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":""Join the waitlist"","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:13:56.000Z","created_at_i":1744485236,"id":43667142,"options":[],"parent_id":43667092,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"approach is similar, but it works better; it can run non-stop for minutes and really get the task done.
Its whole project understanding is a lot better.
It has great tool usage; I mean CLI.
There was a project I just would like to create as Vibe Coding, but Claude was not able to complete. Junie fixed it with a single prompt.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T19:06:27.000Z","created_at_i":1744484787,"id":43667092,"options":[],"parent_id":43666938,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"Could you be more specific? How Jetbrain's approach is different?","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:44:36.000Z","created_at_i":1744483476,"id":43666938,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"I think you all do wrong; you should focus on focused LLMs like JetBrains does. I'm pretty sure you haven't checked the Junie yet, but it is soo promising.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null},{"author":"sbarre","children":[],"created_at":"2025-04-12T18:46:30.000Z","created_at_i":1744483590,"id":43666951,"options":[],"parent_id":43642212,"points":null,"story_id":43642212,"text":"In the 90s at least when people tried to make money by bundling and selling existing free open source software, you got a CD-ROM out of the deal.","title":null,"type":"comment","url":null}],"created_at":"2025-04-10T09:22:44.000Z","created_at_i":1744276964,"id":43642212,"options":[],"parent_id":null,"points":69,"story_id":43642212,"text":null,"title":"Roo or Cline? We're building a superset","type":"story","url":"https://blog.kilocode.ai/p/roo-or-cline-were-building-a-superset"}